Quote from Mattesa :

How much do you figure it's costing Polyphony/Sony to develop/market GT5?

I bet it's a lot more than iRacing. It looks better, more cars, licensing, still online. Yet GT5 it costs less to buy.

Yes GT5 will sell millions more copies, but perhaps iRacing can too, if they priced themselves lower.

The thing is, if you even have to bring up GT5 then you're not going to understand any kind of response I could formulate. But now that you got me thinking; I would bet you a pint that iRacing cost more to develop. With the possible exception of licensing costs notwithstanding, the research and technicalities of iRacing would probably make GT5 (or, really, ANYTHING right now) look pretty silly.

Quote from Shotglass :

yeah it isnt but its tons of money put into perspective by looking at other games
and either way 20$ is a whole lot of money for a demo

And I do agree with you on the demo point, but I think the demo should be time limited and offline only.

Quote :

the day i stop enjoying coming up with inane baseless arguments will be the day i put a gun between my teeth

Quote :

yes but mmos are an entirely different ballpark and derive their popularity through ripping out anything that requires skill from the person playing the game and replacing that with money (both real and virtual) and time spent repetitively killing billions of boars

Those boars are a menace!

Quote :

essentially rpgs come with the promise that if you spend enough time doing the same thing over and over again youll automatically become one of the most powerful persons on the server thus offering some form of guaranteed reward
with racing games (and eg shooters) its not quite so simple and time doesnt translate directly to godliness so for the broad majority of the userbase theres not much motivation in playing the game for hours on end instead of occasionally which is a problem with games that you have to pay monthly fees for and the reason no developer in those market segments has had the poor judgement to try subscription based payments yet

What about the joy of simply having properly sanctioned and penalized racing with unparalleled physics and netcode, in a sim that doesn't have glaring holes or wireframe cockpits? If anything, I'd be much more motivated to play iRacing than WoW for exactly the reasons you describe. The exploration and adventure can be fun in WoW to a point, and large scale PvP is quite fun as well, but racing appeals to me personally more than those things and therefore I have no problem paying for iRacing. (Although I will be trying Age of Conan in a few days :razz

Quote :

yes but a large part of the fin in playing sims just like mmos is exploring the content... and with a basic subscription there just is none for a price that will buy you just about every sim released up until now from the bargain bin

Heh, then I should see you in TDU a lot. It's not a sim, but the Hardcore mode is "sim-like" and actually quite fun. And it'll take you two hours just to make a ring around the island as fast as you can, I have no idea how long it would take to drive every road.

Quote :

at that point ive paid the price of a freshly released game for about as much content as a demo should have
you have to pay a lot just to get an idea whether the game is worth paying money for which you already have done... if that form of content delivery isnt a crappy business model i dont know what is

Yes I do agree about the demo thing.

Quote :

theres something deeply messed up in a business model if cracking a game makes you feel like a modern day robin hood instead of a guy who harms a bloke wholl share his family life with the community
when the srt interview came out you critizised someone for saying how unlikeable the marketing guy was but truth is he was right... the fact that they even have a marketing guy makes their operation dreadful in my book and that he could be taken right out of a dilbert strip doesnt help either

Well, when you're not running a casual "might get it done might not who cares" type of ship, a business is a business. They needed to do research to even see if Kaemmer's vision was financially feasable considering the approach they had in mind, and they need a "marketing guy" unfortunately. When this kind of money is involved, it's more than a hobby and sadly business principles need to make sure that the 40 people making it make a good living too. That even extends to the crap on the shelves like GTR; if the general public didn't "go for it", it wouldn't be there. I'm just glad that in a free market economy where most are creating rubish, that someone had the balls to throw this type of development towards iRacing. It's definitely a "first"

Quote from Ahriman4891 :

I am too lazy to write out 123 reasons for it, but everyone knows it's not true, including yourself.

Don't even bother, seriously.

Quote from Shotglass :

because it creates a false sense of exclusiveness... a division between the haves and the have nots to feel smug about and forget that being a have actually means paying tons of money

Did I mention that a lot (too many sadly, hehe) of the MMO players are too young to drive but manage to subscribe to WoW and the like? Man, quit saying it's "tons of money" because it's just not tons of money generally speaking. It just happens to be the first racing sim to have the kind of development budget and business model that it has, and the end result will reflect that it's a heck of a lot more than a half baked product that's sort of worked on now & then. Besides, if you really are right and it costs too much then all that will happen is they'll lower their prices. Big deal.

Quote :

enlighten me... i have no idea since i dont really care about mmos but something tells me the answer is the ones that dont have to keep you playing and paying through endless grind

If you have no idea why did you comment on it?

Quote :

have i? i guess i have but its a bit harsh on lfs which i mostly like for being a whole buffet of improveability that i strongly believe will one day turn into something truely great
and yes i will whine at the fees incessantly any you wont make me stop

Yeah, it probably will, but maybe it won't. LFS will probably be known as "The sim with the most potential" for quite some time, it's been that way for years already and why think anything different will happen before we pass away? It certainly does have a buffet of improvability though, that's true.

Quote :

with iracing you dont seem to get much that lfs doesnt already offer for free

ROFL, ok, we'll have this conversation again in a few weeks time.

Quote :

and in a way i prefer meaning that i dont have to rely on "the man" to host a server for me

That I could understand.

Quote :

well if say youre traveling at 200kmh thats 55m/s or 22m/packet@400ms... of course it matters at that rate you can plow straight through a car standing on track without even noticing until after youve tunneled straight through it (not physically impossible but usually considered to be extremely rare)

I don't know how they hypothetically do it.

Quote :

well for one i dont care much about the pricepoint of any mmo and probably never will because grind is one of the few things i care to bother with even less than stock cars but mostly its the simple fact that iracing is the most expensive game ive ever even heard of

Well, now you're just avoiding the point. You don't have to care to play MMOs to understand the fact that an exhorbitant supply of people are willing to pay those prices, and the cost is identical to WoW, which would also make WoW the most expensive game you've ever heard of as well.

Quote :

theres no free demo (unlike all mmos ive heard of)

That's the only thing that I agree with the doomsayers in this thread about, a demo and an offline mode (there is no AI) would be reasonable.

Quote :

and at about the same price as an mmo which generally comes with a gigantic world and tons of classes

But those things are the whole point of MMOs. MMOs are not concerned about recreating real environments accurately, or precisely modelling real world objects or their behaviour. There is no real world research that goes into MMOs (at least not physical things), there is no fancy tire testing equipment involved etc. The point of a sim is it's physics first and foremost.

Quote :

you get (from what i understand) 2 tracks one of which i dont care about by default and 2 cars one of which i also dont care about by default and one which is extremely unappealing to me (all of which amounts roughly to how much you get from a certain other sim that you may have heard of for free)... and youre expected to pay a lot more if you want some actual content

Of course if you do commit to a longer term you get more content for free, but most of what I read is that lots of it's elements don't appeal to you, which is fine and fair play but has zero to do (inherently) with the business model.

Quote from wien :

Oh there is, trust me. It's one of the reasons I won't touch any of them. It seems I'm in the minority though, which I find a bit sad since I don't want to end up having to rent every game I want to play instead of paying once and be done with it. The business model just doesn't appeal to me, nor does it fit my gaming habits at all.

All fine, but when you consider that one pays for things like GTR1,GTR2,RACE07, blah blah blah, you're just paying for rehashed crap anyway. But again, my point isn't that it has to appeal to everyone, it's probably better that it doesn't in many cases (but not all). My point is that it's not cost prohibitive in the context of the gaming market in 2008, and nothing more.

Quote from Shotglass :

the matter is that its a cheap marketing trick

Why is it that? A roll out is really the sensible thing to do, and MMOs of all kinds generally do the same thing, or something very similar.

Quote :

yes it is because mumorpugers dont have any alternatives and the developer provides a real service...

Balogne. There are free MMORPGs, pay one time MMORPGs, and subscription based MMORPGs. Guess which ones are the best?

And please, point me to all the top-notch racing sims we all have access to at the moment, I've been looking for it for a few years but must've missed it somehow.... You've said yourself many times that LFS is just the least crappy of everything available, so now we're (likley) getting something worth running and you're just going to whine at the nominal fees?

And what service are the MMORPGs providing other than servers and GMs? Right, they're working on the software, which iRacing will be as well.

Quote :

with iracing all you get are servers which id greatly prefer to be run by independent admins and bad pings for anybody who had the poor judgement to not be born in the us

Of course if someone (hypothetically speaking of course) can play flawlessly with 300 to 400ms pings and it appears as LFS single player lagwise, then that doesn't matter does it? (no, it doesn't)

Quote :

well you must be... in your current position all youll ever do is recycle it indefinitely

Mean head!

Quote :

yes it is... with the current scheme the sim will almost entirely fail or succeed on the (over)pricing
the behaviour bb alluded to is an early indicator that they generally expect the community to just bend over and take whatever they come up with... how they expect this to work with their target market already having their heads in and all that im not sure

Please explain why there's that kind of animosity towards iRacing's pricing when there isn't for WoW, LOTRO etc etc. It's not making sense. If anything, it means that they know it's not going to appeal to everyone, and it also means they want to provide ongoing services. It's not a rushed title pushed out the door by a publisher unfinished at pricepoint X in order to rake in Y amount of dollars, never to be revisited or improved.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Thu, 15 May 2008 21:56.

Ah, so this is all from that BS from the First/NR2003 thing, that sounds about right, I get it now.

That's fine, nobody is forcing you to play it. But you cannot argue that their model is arrogant in the context of modern gaming. I didn't say you had to like it, I'm sure lots of people hate it. It's not unprecedented, and their pricing in and of itself is no indicator at all of it's possible success or failure, that's my point.

LOL, I'm just like that. I could be full of shit anyway, we'll find out soon enough. But if I was full of shit I should know by now anyway according to Shot

edit: and if I am dead wrong, then I'll be the first guy here enjoying my feet with a side of salt and BBQ sauce.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Thu, 15 May 2008 20:31.

Quote from bbman :

How do you know? The last time something was "the sim to end all other sims", it was flaw over flaw, and the dev abandoning ship was no help either... For all we know, it too could be just another marketing gag... To be brutally honest, I wasn't impressed by NR in the slightest, I found the older GPL did a better job of mimicing reality...

Yeah, comparing the iRacing team to Kunos makes a lot of sense. Afterall, why not put unprecedented amounts of investment into a racing sim. Better yet, spend that money on car/track model accuracy and proprietary tire testing to fool everyone... because we all know that the general public is just dying for the best racing simulation ever made! Yeah, it's all a "marketing gag", good call Kaemmer is a proven scoundrel anyway!

(almost broke my sarcasm generator)

Quote :

In addition, the message iRacing's pricing delivers is bad either way: One, if it is a success, it shows that people will gladly pay any amount of money for not even owning something completely unnecessary (to living) if it's just "in" enough... The company can do whatever they want, and nobody would have any means to appease to that...

Why don't you get this? A business model like theirs is NOT new and I don't hear any other subscription community bitching about it. For a cutting edge product that far surpasses (oh right, "if it does") anything else for a NICHE MARKET (as in it does NOT cater to the masses, where those same masses ALREADY accept this same business model for other "games"), it's not at ALL unreasonable to approach it this way.

Quote from Shotglass :

for me the near final nail in the coffin was the announcement that they expect the game to work on a invitation basis for the first few months after the release ie basically like gmail started

What the hell is the matter with building a community before the launch? Anyone that cares enough about it will be able to get an invite anyway, then when it's "fully" released there will already be a thriving community. Yeah, that sucks.

Quote :

theyre deperately trying to make the game expensive and exclusive enough that it appeals to a crowd who have their heads so far up their arse to smell their own farts before they see daylight that the last thing i want to do is race with them

A) It's NOT freaking expensive, as shown by MMORPGORSORS people, period.
B) It doesn't cater to the masses, nor is it supposed to, and it's better that way IMO. CH4 for the win (although not all human fart has that in it from my understanding).

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Thu, 15 May 2008 20:21.

That too.

10 million people don't have a problem doing that for WoW, there is no offline portion to it whatsoever. iRacing is a much more complex product in terms of development, so one could argue that it's a better value - but I'm not talking about the subjective experience. The point is: it's just NOT that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

We're pretty spoiled here, or at least were when things were happening. LFS is a minimalist attitude. 2-3 people that really, at the end of the day, just need us to make sure they don't have to punch a timeclock for Mr. Big every morning. Sorry, but that's the truth, LFS is a business as well. iRacing has forked out lots of money to make something amazing, and if it's as good as everyone playing it (that I know) says then it's worth what they charge.

edit: and I'm not saying anyone's a cheapskate. I'm saying in the general gaming market it's not expensive - in general. It's very simple, and although they are very different products, it's plain and simple: if it's not too much for 10 million WoW players it is NOT too much for anyone who really wants to be involved in iRacing.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Thu, 15 May 2008 16:52.

I've returned all but the 3870 at this point, I am too pissed off to deal with anymore nVidia cards right now, even though I like them way better. Also, the ATi unit is brutal in FSX, which apparantly is the way it is and even Phil Taylor can't figure out why. But, I can now mess around in TDU at max res and max everything at great FPS so that's a step foward at least. And it was half the cost of the 9800GTX!

If I did anymore swapping I'd probably wear out my PCIe slot anyway.

Thanks to everyone in the thread, what a stupid problem that was/is.

One point is that if people pay the $20 for a minimal subscription; they have a month to decide if they "get it" or not. And, they'll probably play it that whole time instead of trying it once and leaving it because they think "it's too hard", afterall, they'll have paid for it and want to get their money's worth and will have more exposure time to get used to playing a sim and not an arcade game. Don't forget, LFS isn't big this side of the pond so a sim might come as a shock to many who may be inclined to try iRacing

WoW has regular free content releases, but the major content releases (expansion packs) are not free by any stretch - but they only come out every 1.5-2 years, whereas updated and new content on a lesser scale is released every few months. WoW also has double or more the development team size, so I'm not sure if it's that much cheaper to develop in the end or not, as well as a massive (albeit poorly paid, but still overhead) support staff. The capital outlay for iRacing is obviously far greater with their fancy tire testing shit and whatnot but the ongoing costs and staff overhead for developing WoW probably evens that out. So, iRacing is probably not that expensive for what you get considering that it won't have 10 million people playing it.

This man speaks the truth!

3870 works just fine, hm...

Off to see how it is in some games.

I won't be upgrading until probably around Christmas at the earliest, so I'm wondering if this card is actually a better match for my mid-level (or is it low now?!?!) than the other cards were anyway.

This card is just as (more than) power hungry as the 8800GT specwise, and it's PCI-E 2 as well so none of the other things are the problem.

Quote from arco :

What is set as the primary graphics card in bios? Try to set it as PCIE if it's not already.

Already done

Quote from Dennisjr13 :

The only other thing I think you could try would be to get a voltage meter and check every connector to see if there is the stated amount of power flowing through each one. You could also find someone with a power supply known to work with the card and try it in your system. Your in a tough situation bud, hang in there.

Done, at least metered the connections.

...

Got a Radeon HD3870 in a box here, almost scared to try it.

JAKG: Is the 3870 a decent upgrade over my 7900GTX?

Everything helps, thanks for the input. Reconnected, reseated, screwed, wiggled, jiggled and skewed everything possible with 3 cards now to no avail. I've never seen anything like this in all my years of working with PCs. Actually that's not totally true, I had a 3DFX card years ago that only worked if it was NOT seated as far as it would go into the PCI slot. But the system wasn't working in the background with that one hehe.

Does not work. Not DVI, nor DVI -> DSub

I used a different adapter than the one that came with the card (didn't notice that until I took it out), would that matter? The one that came with the card has all the pins, my adapter only had the pertinent pins. Maybe if I am feeling masochistic I'll try their adapter later and see what happens.

So, if that didn't work I guess it's not an EDID issue then?

I give up. I am doomed to not be able to upgrade my card. I wish it never worked at all, then I'd just whine that I need a PCIE2 motherboard :P

Something changed somewhere, probably during that Vista install. But I have no idea how that could affect anything that happens before POST even occurs. wow.

Very interesting...

Here is the "conformance" results, anything notworthy here?

Also, I can't seem to find where to fix the EDID, is it the option to "restore factory defaults"? There is an "update EDID" command that this version does not let you use..... The thing that catches my eye is that the Timing thing notes "invalid data", not just "unsupported" like all the other unsupported things.... hm...

I don't have a spare PC and am far to lazy to make a remote connection to this one....

I really need to dig up that VGA cable.

edit: ok, got a new 8800GT here, going to slap it in and see what happens. When it doesn't work I will try the VGA cable w/ adapter, which I found (thankfully). Really hoping it works.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Tue, 13 May 2008 17:07.

Maybe I'll try a regular 8800GT tomorrow, the power specs are definitely in my range. I have a 3850 here but I don't know if I can even bother to install it.

Piss on it.

I took the card back.... AGAIN.

New question: is a Radeon 3850 or 3870 at least an upgrade from my 7900GTX? yes I am lazy, I'll go do some searching now but some informed opinions would be nice too.

Thanks.

This guy had the exact same thing, but it just miraculously disappeared:
http://forums.techpowerup.com/archive/index.php/t-31804.html

I've also heard something about a "power supply timing issue" on 8800 series cards, but I can't find any details about that yet. It would cause no video signal to be output...

That would make sense wouldn't it!

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Well if it is powering up, then yes, I'd try the EDID deal, to be quite honest it sounds rather plausible as I thought you were saying it wasn't turning over at all, not that the screen just wont say hello. The worst that could happen is it still wouldn't work.

I think I jumped on PSU being shot because mine died a few weeks back and it was acting very flaky when it did. If you don't have a DSUB-DVI you can pick them up for about $2 these days.

Yeah especially my first post was not very clear because I was still not thinking properly about what was happening. All that's happening is that it's not coming out of standby. The stupid thing is that on Friday night I went through multiple reboots while updating drivers and so forth and all along it worked just fine coming out of standby (it goes in & out on each reboot). Until I aborted that Vista install, everything was peachy. One thing I have NOT tried is to actually completely unplug and replug my monitor before powering up the system (just turned it off). Is it remotely possible that that Vista install had the monitor in some odd mode that I could clear by unplugging it or something? (no, that's probably not right... grasping at straws here...)

Quote from Shotglass :

hm i figured youd already tried that
but since you havent try any monitor you can get your hands on preferably via vga and even more preferably on a good crt that will tell you exactly what kind of signal it gets if it doesnt manage to put it up on screen

Yeah, I don't have an extra monitor I gave it to my father literally 9 days ago... would've been handy right now.

Quote :

does it? i have a 78gtx (previous generation with more or less the same kind of graphics power as your 79 but built with larger gates => should consume more power) and its been running everything including crysis without major problems for over 2 years on a psu that has 2 16A 12V rails
and as you said even with a less beefy psu than yours it should still be able to do 2D

I just looked up the specs, the box says it wants 22A. No one seems to know exactly what that means the more I look into it, maybe I can find some info on what that requirement really means on the nVidia site or something - all I can find so far on the web is "it means this" vs "it means that" with no real proof.

Tried that

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

44A over two rails is useless to you as only one goes into your card. You really want a high ampage single rail, like this "+12VDC @ 60A" Which is what my lovely PC P&C offers.

That was my understanding as well, but two things:
The 8800 spec was asking for a combined rating. Why? It was only a single 6 pin connector card - without a PSU that bridges rails (apparantly they exist) but the specs specifically state that it's looking for combined 12V amperage. Also, the 9800 DOESN'T say that, however it has two 6 pin connectors. It says it wants 24A, but since it has two 6 pin connectors that should not be an issue? Or is that wrong? Would they not put each 6 pin on a different rail knowing that they're used for power hungry PSUs?

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

60A on a single rail is a bit much for one card yes, from memory my GPU only needs about 25A (recommended), and I doubt the rest of my system will use 35A, but the fact is it has the power to turn over my system, where as BBT has a 22A rail, which is short of what nVidia say he needs. As wattage means nothing if your PSU doesn't have the amps to back it up, which is the case here.

None of the PSUs available at the shop here have better amp ratings than mine, they have big wattage but split it up into more rails. People are running much bigger badder systems than mine with these cards - do all of those people really have a $400 PSU with massive rails? That just CAN'T be right. Can it? The card (the 9800) wants 24A, the 8800 wanted less. I don't even think the rest of my machine could push the 9800 to 92% of it's capacity, and booting in a DOS screen would not draw that from the GPU?

Quote from Alias Driver :

Sounds like it could be an EDID problem. If you can get your hands on another panel it'd be worth giving it a test. Another way to test (if your panel has both DVI and D-sub) is to try a DVI to D-sub adapter and hook up the panel via D-sub. If the display works, then it's an EDID problem for sure.

What panel do you have? There are some with known EDID issues....symptom being a failure for the monitor to detect a signal from the video card and failing to 'resume from standby'.

Samsung 940B (don't hurt me Shot). Hm, that's interesting because that's exactly what's happening. There's lots of great ideas in this thread; but I'll be forever wondering why the #$% it worked fine for 8 hours of hard use. I'll dig up a DSub cable tonight, and use an adapter. Hopefully I did not throw it away thinking I'd never need it!

Quote from Shotglass :

im pretty sure if the psu couldnt power the card the bios would beep a lot rather than boot just fine

I tend to think this (or some kind of problem) as well. Both cards are supposed to tell you if there's a power issue, neither one did. What I would expect to happen if the PSU just "wasn't powerful enough" is that it should at least show me 2D shit, and then cause problems when it's actually taxed in 3D. The card will not draw 24A when you're in a DOS screen, and probably not until you're using Crysis at max detail trying to beat the card into a pulp. If the PSU was really shot, then I just can't see being able to run the 7900 at max load, since that card asks for 20 or 21A on the box. Clearly that's not a problem at all right now. My rig should not even be able to feed the 9800 enough to get it to draw full current, now that I think about it

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Well mine never did, everything would power up, but not the card. I tested a PSU from a spare box and it worked first time. But having a spare box did mean I could test it before shelling out any cash, which is always nice.

That's the thing; I'm convinced that the card is "powering up", I'm wondering if this EDID thing might be worth looking into. The fan on the card(s) come on, there are no low power beeps, and no warning light on the 9800 which it supposedly possesses. BTW I'm not arguing with you, you might just be right. I really appreciate everyone input in this thread, it's really great to have this kind of help from everyone!

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Mon, 12 May 2008 15:34.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Memory sticks is another option although I'd say very unlikely in this case.

I'm guessing you have checked all the wires inside the case so that anything hasn't come loose...?

Maybe put the 7900 in and reset bios to defaults...put the the baby in and try again?

Did you punch it already?

Don't forget the machine is running fine - just the vidcard is failing to produce a signal for some reason. Have scrutinzed all connections to death, been running great on this 7900 all day. BIOS was set to defaults when I flashed it, to no avail.

Physical abuse is getting closer to the top of my priority list though.

LOL,

I've tried both.

To be clear; the monitor knows that it's plugged into the card because when I unplug it the monitor tells me "check cable" etc. That message goes away when I plug the monitor into the card (regardless of whether the PC is on or not of course). I wasn't explicit before - the monitor fails to turn ON when the PC turned on. It never gets a signal to switch on from the video card, so it remains in standby mode. Turning the monitor off and on just makes it tell me that it's switching between polling the analog and digital ports, and then it decides there is nothing and goes back into standby. Whereas with the working card of course when it polls the digital port, sees a signal and switches out of standby mode, and lets me see things.

It really seems like slot incompatibility, I just can't fathom that PSU being wrecked; it's not a crappy PSU and has good specs. I REALLY can't beleive the 8800 worked for that whole night and then just didn't anymore... Man, this is the strangest problem I've ever seen working with PCs.

edit for Hyper:
Both are DVI-D, the cable works with this card, etc etc.

Edit 2:

I doubt this is relevant, but I'll mention it anyway:

The ONLY thing that changed from Friday night to Saturday morning was the fact that I had begun a Vista installation on a different partition. Eventually it was taking too long for my liking, and I'd had a few beers and thought it would be prudent to just shut my machine down cold during that since even if something went awry; I would just reformat the partition and start again in the morning. Why not leave it and go to bed? Yeah, I know. Anyway I fail to see how that could affect this but who the heck knows.

Also, out of pure coincidence, Saturday afternoon my DVDROM drive decided it was going to be an ass and act up. When I try to open the tray, it only opens about 20mm and then I have to pull it open manually. It still works though, I just put CD/DVD in the tray, hit the button (very important, nudging the tray no longer works) and in it goes and works great. That did not coincide timewise with the card not working though, so I wouldn't say that the PSU did something funny.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Mon, 12 May 2008 03:59.